tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35762982.post3580545988346010113..comments2023-07-17T10:26:18.549-04:00Comments on THE FLYING PENGUIN: A Note for T-34 DriversMark Rossmorehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04357616311224328501noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35762982.post-46755338425724665162009-06-22T13:19:24.075-04:002009-06-22T13:19:24.075-04:00@Paul: I tried that, as I mentioned. No response. ...@Paul: I tried that, as I mentioned. No response. He was still squawking his original departure code, so I was able to track down his strip. I tried by callsign and by position ("T-34, three miles west of Whiting, at 9500 feet...")<br /><br />And it's absolutely possible they were actively going after the airliners. The NASA report database had quite a few reports of Navy trainers doing just that, either intentionally or not. I was going to write a blog post about that - with about a dozen examples - but decided against it because it would ruffle quite a few feathers.Mark Rossmorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04357616311224328501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35762982.post-38461896270262620502009-06-22T13:15:10.419-04:002009-06-22T13:15:10.419-04:00It couldn't be worse. It seemed like everywher...<i>It couldn't be worse. It seemed like everywhere we had an arriving or departing airliner, he was right in its face. Seriously, every time. It's like he had some kind of "Sixth Spidey Ninja Sense" or something.</i><br /><br />Um... it's entirely possible that he was doing it <b>on purpose</b>. Looking out the window, sees a jetliner, moseys on over to take a look... why not? He's VFR, it's his right to do so!<br /><br />Personally, I'd suggest hitting the guy on guard at some point and saying "look, you're not on the right code AND you're right in the way of a bunch of traffic- can you just move down a thousand or two thousand feet for us, please?"Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00713913651375624497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35762982.post-40818907108877330542009-06-10T09:52:07.300-04:002009-06-10T09:52:07.300-04:00Also - I'd like to emphasize that our problem ...Also - I'd like to emphasize that our problem areas are specifically Area 3 by the beach, and the higher altitude areas directly over Whiting (8500-10000). Everywhere else - Area 1, Area 2, and Area 2F - work fine.Mark Rossmorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04357616311224328501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35762982.post-91679834023966361642009-06-10T09:48:43.422-04:002009-06-10T09:48:43.422-04:00@DisgruntledFlyer: I'm not trying to restrict ...@DisgruntledFlyer: I'm not trying to restrict the IFR traffic. I'm trying to get them down - or up - as best as possible, without taking them too far out of their way. However, I'm not going to aim them directly at a VFR target and just hope the airliner beats them through their altitude.<br /><br />I've actually tried that. "He's VFR", he should be looking out. Doesn't work here. I've gotten several RA's or TA's or what-not trying that approach. It's not a good feeling to hear, "Delta XXXX, TCAS climb." That's paperwork for the pilots, a call to our supervisor so he can log it, and an embarrassed "Dammit" from me as I try to make sure the airliner doesn't maneuver himself into something else. <br /><br />@Spinning Hat: Precisely!<br /><br />@Anon1: Thanks for the info. I do have a copy of the FWOP. Unfortunately, we have no way to call up anyone on either the area common or instructor frequencies. <br /><br />@Anon2: That's why I'm posting this, so everybody can see what kind of room and traffic flow operate with. Our airspace on the east side is so chopped up and mangled, leaving us with very little space.<br /><br />Wasn't it a fatal midair collision between two T-34s - who were not talking to us or each other - that prompted them to put the NACWS TCAS system in the Mentors?Mark Rossmorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04357616311224328501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35762982.post-21720622958278270482009-06-09T23:56:48.460-04:002009-06-09T23:56:48.460-04:00Yea right ! The Navy has just about every square i...Yea right ! The Navy has just about every square inch of P31's airspace as alert area 292 (A292 on the sectional)or MOA. T34's are everywhere doing their training. The T34's are perfectly legal doing what they do....however there is a FINE line between being legal and being SAFE! The Navy knows that P31 has traffic out there, they choose not to talk to ATC and rely on their half ass limited TCAS. Even in area 3 they rarely answer traffic calls from ATC. When one gets smacked by another A/C being legal, the FWOPS will change.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35762982.post-4421382221878986312009-06-07T03:53:59.654-04:002009-06-07T03:53:59.654-04:00Hey Penguin! It seems that T-34 was operating in ...Hey Penguin! It seems that T-34 was operating in "Area 2T" which extends from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL. As you mentioned, he was outside of Class C airspace and squawking the appropriate code. His UHF radio would most likely be tuned to the area common frequency and his VHF radio would be tuned to an instructor common frequency. You can check out a copy of our "Fixed Wing Operating Procedure," or FWOP, at: https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/tw5/docs/instructions/3710.2S_CH1.PDF You might be particularly interested in pages 118-122. Hope you find this helpful!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35762982.post-73958952988042717742009-06-05T02:15:25.673-04:002009-06-05T02:15:25.673-04:00I think this is more of a request to the pilots in...I think this is more of a request to the pilots inthe area that he's cool with them up and flying, but he's trying to lessen the workload a bit to make working that traffic more manageable. If he's down at 8500, or further north playing down low, no advisories, and no appreqs need to be given to get the 'normal' traffic flow in and out. Wicked Penguin just happens to have a little bigger soapbx than a lot of controllers to get the message out. :DAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09528020545969326766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35762982.post-53284628434594283662009-06-04T13:56:20.371-04:002009-06-04T13:56:20.371-04:00Sounds like you could get TAs in this situation bu...Sounds like you could get TAs in this situation but probably not RAs. www.arinc.com/downloads/tcas/tcas.pdf<br /><br />Would it have been nice if the T34 moved? Yes. But a LOT of controllers spend a lot of time separating IFR traffic from VFR targets. In my non-expert opinion, adding restrictions to IFR aircraft to avoid a VFR target doesn't jive with the "least restrictive" philosophy that was drilled into me during classes. Give a traffic advisory and then it's business as usual unless the IFR complains.DisgruntledFlyernoreply@blogger.com